Ida Countess de Toeni

  General Notes:

~Weis' Ancestral Roots . . ., 8th Edition, 30:26, William Longespee, natural son of Henry II by Ida, possibly de Toeni, daughter of Roger de Toeni ¹⁶⁰

~The American Genealogist, "Countess Ida, Mother of William Longespée,Illegitimate Son of Henry II," vol. 77:4, Oct. 2002, pp. 279-281, Raymond W. Phair, "This Ida was further identified as the wife of Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk."

~The American Genealogist, Countess Ida, Mother of William Longespée, Illegitimate Son of Henry II," Vol. 77:2, Apr. 2002, p. 141

~Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry, p.8, 456-457 ⁵⁹⁹

~Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry, pp.84, 297, 342.⁸²¹

  Noted events in her life were:

• Background Information: Ida's ancestry is discussed on Soc.Gen.Medieval. ^599,182
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Countess Ida, mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: 6 Dec 2002 11:44:28 -0800


Dear Newsgroup ~

The following explantory note is what presently appears in the draft of the manuscript of the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry, regarding Countess Ida, mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury. Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

NOTE: William Longespée has long been thought to have been the illegitimate child of Henry II, King of England, by his mistress, Rosamond Clifford. However, new evidence has surfaced in recent years which indicates William was actually the son of King Henry II by another of his mistresses, a certain Ida, afterwards the wife of Roger Bigod (died 1221), 4th Earl of Norfolk, a noted Magna Carta baron. For the Bigod family, see C.P. 9 (1936): 586-589 (sub Norfolk); A.H. Thompson ed. Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc., vol. 136) (1928). For conclusive evidence that William Longespée was the son of Countess Ida, see V.C.M. London Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc., vol. 35) (1979): 143,188, which includes two charters in which William Longespée specifically names his mother, Countess Ida. Moreover, among the prisoners captured at the battle of Bouvines in Flanders in 1214 was a Ralph Bigod, who contemporary records specifically call "brother" [i.e., half-brother] of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see J.W. Baldwin ed. Les Registres de Philippe Augustus (1992), miscellanea no. 13].

As for the identity of Countess Ida, in the July 1856 issue of the New England Register, William Chauncy Fowler stated that Earl Roger Bigod had two wives, "Ida de Thouy [Tony] and Isabella de Warren" [see NEHGR, 10 (1856): 262]. If Mr. Fowler correctly identified Countess Ida's maiden name as Tony, it seems likely that she was a daughter of Roger de Tony (died 1157/62), Baron of Flamstead, co. Hertford, by his wife, Ida, daughter of Baldwin III, Count of Hainault. For supporting evidence of Countess Ida's possible Tony identity, it may be noted that William Longespée and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, co. Oxford, which Roger was a younger son of Roger de Tony (died 1157/62), Baron of Flamstead, co. Hertford. For Roger de Akeny's place in the Tony family pedigree, see C.P. 14 (1998): 614; L.C. Loyd Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families (1951), pg. 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; C. Harper-Bill Dodnash Priory Charters (1998), pp. 34-37, 39-40,72-73; Family History 18 (1997): 47-64; 19 (1998): 125-129; see also C.P. 8 (1932): chart following pg. 464. Specifically, Dodnash Priory Charters (1998), pg. 78, includes a charter issued by Roger de Akeny, in which he sealed with a maunch, which is the same heraldic device employed by the Tony family on their arms. While familial associations and onomastic evidence is suggestive that William Longespee's mother, Countess Ida, was a member of the Tony family, direct evidence is still lacking to confirm her parentage. Special thanks go to Rosie Bevan, Ray Phair, and Paul C. Reed, all of whom made material contributions to this discussion.

• Background Information: More discussion on Ida Toeni as the mother of William Longspeé. ¹⁸²
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: Vickie Elam White <102657.1616@compuserve.com>
Subject: Countess Ida Mother of William de Longespee
Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:52:48 -0400

London, Vera C. M., ed. *The Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory* Volume XXXV for the year 1979, Wiltshire Record Society. (Impression of 450 copies)

pp. 8-9:

... "THE CONTENT OF THE CARTULARIES

These cartularies contain material of considerable interest, especially to genealogists working on the families of Wiltshire and Gloucestershire, and also to the student of place-names and field-names. To the historian the most important charters are two which offer a clue to the very old mystery concerning the mother of William Longespee, illegitimate son of Henry II. For a long period it was supposed that she was Rosamund Clifford, but in recent years it has generall accepted that her identity is unknown.1 In these two charters William Longespee, earl of Salisbury, refers to his mother as Comitissa Ida, mater mea(481) and Ida comitissa, mater mea(646). These entries occur in two different manuscripts and in different topographical sections and seem unlikely to be the result of scribal error. Slight confirmation can be found for them in the fact that one of William's daughters was christened Ida. Much work will be needed before a positive identification of Countess Ida can be made, but it is worth noting that the grand-daughter of King Stephen by Mary, his daughter (wife of Matthew count of Flanders), was named Ida and was countess of Boulogne in her own right. ... 1 The one contrary opinion is that she was Alice Poerhoet. W.L.Sheppard, 'The Bastards of Henry II', *The Genealogists' Magazine*, XIV(1964), pp.361-8."

The charters themselves are translations and abstractions.

p. 143 GLOUCESTERSHIRE "... 481 [1197 x 1226] Gift in alms by William Longespee, earl of Salisbury, for the souls of Ela, his wife, and the Countess Ida, his mother, of all the land in Hatherop which Ralph de Parco held while he lived. The canons to hold of the earl, quit of all service. Warranty. Seal. Witnesses: Master T. de Chebeham subdean of Salisbury, Reynold of Whitchurch, Jn. de Mohun, Rob. de Crevequer constable of Salisbury, Lambert the German, Everard the German his brother, Thos. de Cormeilles, Rog. of Durnford, Ives son of Warin, Geof. le Veel, Jn. onet, Rob. son of Geof., Mat. the clerk, Wm. of Canford. ..."

p.188 APPENDIX II

"... 646 [1198 x 1226] Gift in alms by William Longespee, earl of Salisbury, for the soul of Countess Ida, his mother, of 1/2 virgate in Chitterne, which Tresmund Culling held and 1/2 virgate which R. Algar held in the same township. Seal. Witnesses: Wal. de Rivers, P.burdon, W. Talbot, S. of Cheverell, T. of Canford, Master W. the clerk, R. of Wheathampstead. ..."

Ida married Henri II "Courtmanteau" Plantagenêt King of England, son of Geoffrey V "le Bel" Plantagenêt Comte d'Anjou and Queen Matilda "the Empress." (Henri II "Courtmanteau" Plantagenêt King of England was born on 5 Mar 1133 in Le Mans, Sarthe, Anjou, France,^523,174 died on 6 Jul 1189 in Chinon Castle, Indre-et-Loire, France ^523,174 and was buried in Royal Abbey, Fontevraud-l'Abbaye, Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France ¹⁷⁴.)

Ida next married Roger "the Sheriff" le Bigod Earl of Norfolk, son of Hugh le Bigod 1st Earl of Norfolk and Juliana de Vere, in 1207-1212.¹⁶⁰ (Roger "the Sheriff" le Bigod Earl of Norfolk was born before 1150 in St. Saveur, Calvados, Normandy, France ⁸⁵⁰ and died in May-Aug 1221 in Evesham, England ⁸⁵⁰.)