Elizabeth de Neville

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• Background Information: From GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives. ¹⁹³
From: Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com>
Subject: Complete Peerage Addition: Parentage of Elizabeth, wife of Robert Fitz Ralph, ancestress of the Lords Greystoke
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:43:52 -0800 (PST)

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 516 - 517 (sub Fitzwilliam) and 6 (1926): 190 (sub Greystoke) identify the parents of Ralph de Greystoke, 1^st Lord Greystoke as Robert Fitz Ralph, of Greystoke, Cumberland, and Elizabeth his wife. Collectanea Top. et Gen. 5 (1838): 315 (sub Greystoke) further identifies Ralph de Greystoke's mother, Elizabeth, as the "daughter of Ralph Nevill of Scotton," but provides no evidence to support this statement. Testamenta Eboracensia, 4 (Surtees Soc. 53) (1869): 20 agrees that Elizabeth, wife of Robert Fitz Ralph, was a Neville, and indicates that she named Richard de Neville, Rector of Scotton, Lincolnshire, as one of the executors of her nuncupative will dated 25 November 1346. Again, however, no evidence was provided to support Elizabeth's identification as a NNeville.

Back in 2006, John Ravilious proposed that Elizabeth, wife of Robert Fitz Ralph, of Greystoke, Cumberland, the ancestress of the Lords Greystoke, was the daughter of Robert de Neville, of Scotton, Lincolnshire, by his wife, Angharad (or Ankaret) ferch Gruffydd ap Madog. A copy of John's post is provided below. At the time, John had only indirect evidence which suggested that Elizabeth, wife of Robert Fitz Ralph, was a Neville of Scotton. He based his identification on a requested dispensation dated 1317 for a marriage between the said Elizabeth's son, Ralph de Greystoke, and Alice de Audley. This dispensation request indicated that the couple were related in the 4th and 3rd degrees of kindred. If Elizabeth, wife of Robert Fitz Ralph, was the daughter of Robert de Neville, of Scotton, Lincolnshire, then her son Ralph de Greystoke would in fact have been related to Alice de Audley in the 4th and 3rd degrees of kindred. So it certainly lookedd good.

Happily, in recent time I've managed to locate a description of a seal of Elizabeth, "lady of Greystoke," wife of Robert Fitz Ralph, which confirms that Elizabeth was in fact a Neville. The description of the seal is found in Archaeologica Aeliana, 3rd Series, 20 (1923): 150. The seal is dated 1344, two years before Elizabeth's death in 1346. This is how the seal is desccribed:

"Oval, a robed female figure standing between two shields, the dexter, barry three chaplets (FitzWilliam) the sinister, a fess indented of five fusils in a border indented (Neviille)."

On this seal, the Neville arms are displayed with five fusils. The British Herald indicates that both three and five fusils are used by the Neville family of Lincolnshire [see ].

Curiously, I note that the seal of Philip de Neville, Knt., of Scotton, dated 1346 displays four fusils [see Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894)]. Sir Philip de Neville, of Scotton, living 1346, was the son and heir of Robert de Neville, of Scotton, Lincolnshire. As such, he would have been the brother of Elizabeth de Neville, wife of Robert Fitz Ralph.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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COPY OF JOHN RAVILIOUS' EARLIER POST

Tuesday, 14 November, 2006

Hello All,

The account in Complete Peerage concerning Ralph, 1st Lord Greystoke states that he was the son of Robert fitz Ralph: his mother was identified by Miss Burford Butcher as Elizabeth, but she was otherwise unidentifieed [1].

Several secondary sources state that Elizabeth was a Nevill: Robert Davies, for one, stated specifically that Robert fitz Ralph ' married Elizabeth, daughter of Ralph Neville of Scotton in Lincolnshire ' without citing any source [2]; there is a citation to an inquisition on the death of Elizabeth in the Additions to Dugdale's Baronage, but if this is transcribed as Ralph as indicated by the author, this is an error [3]. The lord of Scotton (Lincs.) at the time was Robert de Nevill, son of Philip de Nevill of Enderby, Northants. Sometime after the death of William le Boteler of Wemme in 1283, Robert de Nevill married William's widow Angharad ferch Gruffydd, daughter of Gruffydd ap Madog by his wife Emma de Audley (licence for same was granted on 10 June 1285) [4]. Robert de Nevill of Scotton had letters of protection for 3 years dated 26 Nov 1290, due to his pilgrimage to Jerusalem; he may have been in England by 24 May 1293, when a commission was granted to R. le Porter and J. de Sylvestrode concerning the breaking of the park of Robert de Nevill and Angareta his wife at Oversley, co. Warwicks. [5]. He had certainly returned by November 1293, and was still living at the time of a mandate dated at Westminster, 28 Nov 1293, concerning the chapel of St. Mary at Scotton, Lincs. [6].

This identification is supported by the dispensation for the marriage of Elizabeth's son Ralph to Alice de Auddley:

' Request, by the King, for a papal dispensation that Ralph Craystoke, of the diocese of York, and Alice de Audele the King's kinswoman, of the diocese of Coventry and Lichfield, might intermarry, although the said Ralph and Alice are related in the 4^th-3^rd degrees of consanguinity '' [7]

Elizabeth de Nevill was the daughter of Robert (not Ralph) de Nevill of Scotton and his wife Angharad ferch Gruffydd. The common descent of Ralph and Alice from Sir Henry de Aldithley and Bertrade de Mainwaring made them 2^nd cousins 1x removed, or related in the 4^th and 3^rd degrees as stated in the dispenssation.

<snip>

Based upon the IPM of Robert fitz Ralph, the account in CP states that Ralph de Greystoke was born on 15 August 1299 [8]. His parents would have been young (Robert aged 18 or possibly more, Elizabeth probably aged 14 or 15), if the dating in the IPM is accurate. Past history has shown this may well not be the case, and given the relative youth of Elizabeth in 1299, given the chronology of the family ca. 1283-1285, I would recommend a close examination of Robert's 1317 IPM, when posssible.

The foregoing resolves the quandary of the Greystoke-Audley dispensation, and also provides an additional Nevill/Bromfield/ Audley descent for the Lords Greystoke, the Hiltons of Swine and Winestead, and a host of descendants. There are also lines to de Braose, the earlier princes of Gwynedd and Powys, and the well-known descent from Henry I of England via Gloucester, the Earls of Chester, Mainwaring and Audley.

John P. Ravilious

NOTES

[1] CP VI:190, sub _Greystoke_.
[2] Robert Davies, F.S.A., Grimthorpe, in Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journal (London, 1873), II::201.
[3] Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica (London : Nichols and Son, 1838), V:315, cites Esc. 20 Edw III. no. 52. See also Testa. Eboracensia IV:20, which states 'she was a Nevill' [cites Reg. Zouche, 3305b.].
[4] CP II:231, sub _Boteler, Botiler or Butiller (of Wem)_, cites CCR 12 Edw I, m. 9 and CPR 13 Edw. I, m. 10.
[5] Knights of Edward I (HSP 82), III:261, cites CPR (no date). The commission was dated at Westminster, 24 May 1293: CPR 21 Edw I, p. 46, m. 15d.
[6] Mandate dated at Westminster, 28 Nov 1293: 'C 143/22/9 to Robert de Nevill of Scotton to grant messuages and land in Scotton and Northorpe to a chaplain in the chapel of St. Mary at Scotton, retaining land in Scotton and Manton. Lincoln.'
[7] CP VI:190, note (f), cites Roman Roll, 11-14 Edw. II, m. 14d.
[8] Ibid.

Elizabeth married Robert Fitz Ralph, son of Sir Ralph Fitz William Knight, Baron and Unknown ¹⁴¹.^,193 (Robert Fitz Ralph was born before 1277 in Grimthrope, Yorkshire, England and died before Apr 1317 in Greystoke, Penrith, Cumberland, England ⁹⁴⁶.)