Rohese de Verdon

  General Notes:

~Cokayne's Complete Peerage, Vol. II, (Butler), p. 448, Theobald's 2nd wife, she bore Theobald three sons, John and two Theobalds. They all retained the surname of their mother, apparently because yet another Theobald, a son by Theobald Butler's 1^st wife, inherited the Butler properties, offices, and privilidges ¹⁴¹

~Baronia Anglica Concentrata, Vol. I, p. 445, Rohese, the daughter of Nicholas Verdon, married Thoebald le Boteler. She died Circa 1257. ⁸¹⁴

  Information about this person:

• Background Information: Verdun & the Boteler Connection from Gen-Medieval Archives. ¹⁹³
From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.u-net.com>
Subject: Verdun (& the Boteler connection)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:43:51 +0000

--
I've today got and had a quick look at an early copy of Mark S. Hagger, The Fortunes of a Norman Family: The Verduns in England, Ireland and Wales 1066-1316 (2001), which I haven't seen noted here.

In place of his footnote superscripts, where the source-title is brief I've inserted the actual source citation in mid-text. CRR = Curia Regis Rolls (London, 1891-). RLC = Rotulia Clausarum in Turri Londinensi Asservati, ed. T.D. Hardy, London 1833, 1844. CPR = Calendar of Patent Rolls (London, 1922-). CDI = Calendar of Documents Relating to Ireland, eds. H.S. Sweetman and G.F. Handcock (London, 1875-86). CIPM = Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem (London, 1904-).

Hagger confirms unproblematically, though with modest (and for us perhaps significant) caution so far as any claims might be made as to its wider genealogical significance:

Nicholas de Verdun's bride, Clementia, appears to be a member of the Butler [sic] family - although not necessarily a representative of the senior line - and the same is true of his daughter's husband, Roesia marrying Theobald II Butler in 1225 at the express wish of the king [CRR, vol. 17, no. 1462; Hagger p. 218].

Outlining the force of Nicholas de Verdun's determination (which is also potentially of import for us) to ingratiate himself with Henry III --

It is easy to suspect that it was more than simply coincidence that led Nicholas to attach himself to the court just as Henry III [at the end of his minority] was taking control of the kingdom and beginning to make his own grants. Whatever his motives, Nicholas does seem to have done rather well out of Henry III in the first three years of his independent reign....In 1228, another sign of royal favour manifested itself when the king's 'dear and faithful Nicholas de Verdun' and his wife, Clementia, were granted custody of 'Susan, our niece, the daughter of Llywelyn prince of North Wales and Joanna his wife, our sister...[ellipsis Hagger's] to be brought up safe and secure and without all injury'. [CPR, 1225-32, p. 230] [Hagger pp. 68-9]

Compare e.g. Hagger's 'dear and faithful' with Nat's translation ('beloved') of "dilecto et fideli" reported by Paul 29 Nov, and Hagger's general emphasis on the Verdun's (rather than Llewellyn's) possibly gainful motive in the exchange. (I understand Nat's decision - the locution is formulaic; in this case though, I feel the more strict translation may be worth our considering here.)

The book makes no mention of Dauntsey, and no allusion to any possible further connection between Clemence and the royal family.

Re Chris Phillips' query --

One point that I don't think has been discussed - a different one from the question of whether hostages were normally placed with relatives - was the point about why Clemence de Verdun was mentioned along with Nicholas, in the order for Susanna to be placed as a hostage. Actually, I think Paul has touched on some of the practicalities of this, but I wonder if anyone can comment on how common it was for a wife to be named in this way?

-- this is of course a good point. But if behind it there's any expectation that Clemence's mention might disclose some special claim to attention by right of her own status (the "regina Clemencie" issue), then my gut feeling, having studied this section of Hagger's history of the Verduns, is that it would put Clemence de Verdun out of the running. In spite of some speculations anong us there is no sign of the Boteler's having anything resembling a position in the social order warranting special attention beyond that of an upcoming minor family at this time. There is, however, the possibility that Nicholas' ambition, rather than Clemence's social status, led to their having Susanna entrusted to them. This does leave the key possibility that Clemence had had an affair with a royal, but I'm not yet clear there is any evidence that events would have placed her particularly near the king -- unless of course Nicholas (shame to say) may have wished it, which isn't without historical precedent. A good deal more on the Boteler history could certainly help here.

With regard to the question as to why the name Verdun was doggedly maintained (as against e.g. Botiler, Albo Monasterio/Blancminster, etc), Hagger lays out substantial socio-political reasons for this, at length and in several places (e.g. p. 225-8).

As I say, I've not had time to read the book thoroughly, by any means. As to the search for the right Botiler/Butler line, however -- and for reasons I won't go into here -- a rapid scan of Hagger's account of the power-network with which the Verduns are associated (and particularly the Verduns' alignment within it) suggests to me that a consideration of the butlers of the Earls of Chester (whom Paul has included in his quick-pincerna-scan for us, beginning 23 Nov 2001) should get very high priority -- so long as we are to look for Botelers of English origin. If we had evidence of a pincerna associated with the Ferrers, earls of Derby, this would be a second choice. On the English side there remains a possibility that the butlers of the Beaumont earls of Leicester provide the link; one motive underlying the promotion of the Verduns under Bertram II/Norman/Bertram III appears to be their role as buffer between the Chester and Leicester camps (in the same period as the 'raising from the dust' of the Clintons, for much the same reason) -- as they were between the earls Chester and Derby. But a distinct counter-Leicester Chester allegiance/entanglement is unmistakable. I'll give a summary of some of the thinking if it's wanted, but the devil's in the details and I won't take time here to synthesize these.

I should point out that following K. John's granting to Bertram III of lands in Ireland (in the present county of Louth, based around Dundalk and Ardee), the orientation of Verdun marriages shifts from the English Midlands to Ireland, and Hagger associates the Clemence le Boteler marriage (along with marriages to de Lacys in the period) with that move; in the Boteler/Butler search it would seem wrong to neglect Irish records. (It's following the death of Walter de Lacy -- and John de Verdun's inheritance of Lacy lands in the Welsh march -- that in a later generation the Verduns shift their attention to marriages in Wales [overview, pp. 218-19].) Here chronology is important though, since it's at the moment of K. John's granting of Irish lands to the Verduns that he does the same with Theobald Walter (Boteler) (viz. "five and half cantreds in Limerick, including the borough of Killaloe and land now in counties Clare, Offaly, Tipperary and Limerick", p. 50-1). A further complication that should in the end be a valuable one to follow is that lands having come to the Verduns from 'Philip Butler' via the 'Clementia Butler' (as Hagger calls them) marriage are in Wilts-- viz. Stoke Farthing, Wilsford, and (a so-far unidentified site) Stapellaunton. [Hagger p. 76]

Along these lines:

How much influence the de Verduns had in the choice of their marriages is not clear. We do not know if they initiated marriage negotiations with de Clinton, Basset, Butler, de Bohen et al. or whether they were approached by these families, although it does seem unlikely that the de Verduns would have suggested a marriage to Earl Robert de Ferrers in Stephen's reign. Instead, de Ferrers probably married his daughter, Matilda, to Bertram III de Verdun in an effort to counter the influence which Earl Ranulf of Chester was exerting over the family....In one case at least [where Henry III urged the m. between Roesia and Theobald II Butler] it seems that the de Verduns had been given very little room for manoeuvre....[Hagger p. 219]

On Rohese/Rohais/Roesia's marriages:

...[I]t is clear that she had been married and widowed at least twice already by [the time she succeeded, 1231], as the charter she gave the priory of Grace Dieu [which she founded] in 1231x41 mentions her husbands (in the plural), amongst others....The identity of her first husband is unknown, but he must have died before 4 September 1225 when Henry III sent a letter to Roesia urging her to marry Theobald II Butler [RLC, vol. 2, p. 60] (also called Theobald Walter in contemporary sources), the heir to the lordship of Nenagh in County Tipperary, who had himself previously been married to Geoffrey de Marisco's daughter.

Hagger's footnote here centers on a citation:

'[Theobald Walter] has so misconducted himself in regard to the king, that although he has married the justiciary's (Geoffrey de Marisco's) daughter, and has by her a son, the justificary would, if it is the king's will, deprive him of all the land which he holds of the king in Ireland'. [CDI, vol. 1, no. 1443] This notice dates to about August 1226, so that Geoffrey's comments must relate to a past marriage.

Roesia may have been reluctant to marry him as Henry sent another letter to her father, asking him to encourage her to make the match. [RLC, vol. 2, p. 60]....Roesia did indeed marry Thoebald Butler and had at least two children by him, a son, John, and a daughter, Matilda. John was to inherit the de Verduns' lands from his mother, having already adopted her toponym at least five years before her death....Matilda, who might have been married to Walter II de Lacy before his death between 1238 and 1241,

Hagger's footnote here:

The Register of St Thomas' abbey records that an unnamed daughter of Roesia's had married Walter II de Lacy at an unspecified date. As Roesia is not known to have had any other daughters Matilda is the likeliest candidate (Register, p. 420).

had married John fitzAlan by 1242.

[Excerpta é Rotuli Finium in Turri Londinensi Asservati Henrico Tertio Rege, 1216-72, ed. C. Roberts, Record Commission (London, 1835), I, p. 387. ]

Matilda was to outlive her husband and went on to marry Richard d'Amundeville before her own death in 1284. [CIPM, vol. 2, no. 489]


[NOTE: Hagger elsewhere (p. 251) says she d. 1283, and here cites both CIPM, vol. 2, no. 489 and no. 536. We have her as d. 27 Nov 1283, though I haven't checked the relevant posting.]

Theobald Butler, d. Poitou 1230, had ordered that Roesia be assigned dower from his lands, with
the custody of 'the lands and heirs of Theobald Walter, and the marriage of the heirs' being given to Richard of Cornwall, Henry III's brother. [CCR, 1227-31, p. 572; CDI, vol. 1, nos. 1845, 1847]

Hagger, finding these orders sent also to the justiciary of Ireland, believes she may also have something in dower there, but finds no record of what it might have been. She also petitions against Roger de Quency of a third part of the manors of Whiteheton and Merton with appurts. in Lancs; a third of the manor of Shipley, Yorks; a third of the manor of Belaugh, Norf; a third of a £4 rent from the manor of Perham, Suff, as her dower. [CRR, vol. 15, no. 372] [End of Hagger p. 72-3, from <On Rohese/Rohais/Roesia's marriages> above.]

[NOTE: Whiteheton is unidentified, but I'm aware that '- heton' is a common suffix in Lancs as elsewhere - viz. 'TUN on high land'.]

To save possible confusion owing to Hagger's nomenclature, re the 'Walter II de Lacy' who is said to have m. an unnamed da. of Roesia de Verdun -- this would actually be the s. of Gilbert de Lacy (grdsn of Walter -- more commonly called Walter II -- de Lacy the bro of Hugh II, E of Ulster) and Isabel le Bigod; living (acc. to e.g. DNB sub Walter de Lacy) 1238 but d.s.p. in his grandfa's lifetime. Bro. and sis. John and Matilda de Verdun would thus have m. bro. and sis. Walter and Margery/Margaret de Lacy.

In this quick scan, I've not found in Hagger the fa. of Alianor (Eleanor) de Bohun, John's 2d wife after Margery de Lacy, though he implies, in alluding to her son Humphrey's name, that she's a da. of one of the Humphreys. If indeed she is as I (very hurriedly) suspect the da. of Humphrey de Bohun and (1) Eleanor de Briouze, then Roesia's petitions against Roger de Quency take on some special interest, since Humphrey's wife (2) is Joan, da. of Robert de Quincy by Helen, da. of Llewellyn ap Iorwerth....but I haven't in any way yet worked this through (though I'm not as worried about chronology as you might at first think)!

Brief sum. of Hagger's reconstruction (again, partial):

1 Bertram I de Verdun fl. ca. 1086-1100; of Verdun nr. Vessey, Manche, cant. Pontorson; prob. witness of charter, Avranches, 1066

1.1 Bertram II de Verdun d. by 1129-30

1.1.1 Norman de Verdun succeeded 1129-30. Married Lescelina de Clinton, da. of Geoffrey I de Clinton

1.1.1.1 Bertram III de Verdun b. ca. 1137-8; d. 24 August 1192, Jaffa. Succeeded 1152/3. Married (1) Matilda, da. Earl Robert de Ferrers; (2) Rohesia/Rohais (--) by 1176

1.1.1.1.1 Thomas de Verdun b. ca. 1173 (majority, and succeeded, 1194); d. 1198. Married Eustachia Basset [NOTE: This would be da. of Gilbert Basset of Wycombe/Bicester and Egeline de Courtenay; she m. (2) Richard de Camville].

1.1.1.1.2 Nicholas de Verdun (bro) succeeded 1199; d. 1231, by 23 Oct. Married Clementia Butler, da. of Phillip Butler.

1.1.1.1.2.1 Roesia de Verdun succeeded 1231; d. 1246-7. Married Theobald II 'Butler' (s. of Theobald Walter) who d. 1230, Poitou.

1.1.1.1.2.1.1/2 John de Verdun b. 1225-30, d. by May 1274 m. (1) Margery/Margaret de Lacy, da. of Gilbert de Lacy of Ewyas Lacy, Heref (d. 1230) and Isabel le Bigod; (2) Alianor de Bohun.

Rohese married Theobald le Boteler Lord Boteler, son of Theobald Fitz Walter and Maud le Vavasour, on 4 Sep 1225 in Arklow, Wicklow, Ireland.¹⁴¹ (Theobald le Boteler Lord Boteler was born about 1200 in West Dereham, Norfolk, England, died on 19 Jul 1230 in Piotou, France ¹⁴¹ and was buried in Abbey of Arklow, Ireland ¹⁴¹.)