Geoffrey de Say Lord of West Greenwich

  Noted events in his life were:

• Background Information. ¹⁴¹
Geoffrey de Say I, brother and heir male, being 2^nd son of William de Say I and Beatrice, was born probably not later than 1135 *, and possibly earlier. He appears as witness to a charter of Earl William de Mandeville, brother of Earl Geoffrey, before 1166, and a charter of Henry II, executed at Winchester (1176-81), granting to Earl William de Mandeville all the land (in Normandy] which Robert de Say had rightfully given him. In 1184/5 he accounted in respect of disseisins in Kent; and acted as intermediary for Ralph Brito in connection with his account for the issues of the lands of Henry de Essex and of the Honor of Boulogne. On the King's last return to England in 1188, he was one of the messengers sent forthwith to Canterbury, to demand the instant restoration of services at Christ Church, Canterbury.

In 1191 Geoffrey de Say I offered 7000 marks, after an offer of 3000 marks by Geoffrey FitzPiers in the previous year, for the land of Earl William de Mandeville (died 1189). The heir was Geoffrey's mother, Beatrice, but being "feeble and full of days " she stood aside in the interest of her son. Geoffrey obtained a grant of the lands and in 1190 put an aid upon them; but he was unable to pay the promised sum, and the lands, and eventually the Earldom, came to Geoffrey FitzPiers as husband of Beatrice, elder daughter of William, Geoffrey de Say's elder brother. Geoffrey de Say, however, did not abandon his claim, and in 1212 appointed his son Geoffrey, to whom he transferred his rights, to act as his attorney in the pending suit against Geoffrey FitzPiers for the lands of Earl William. Geoffrey I and Geoffrey FitzPiers were dead by 1214, in which year the claim was heard, after Geoffrey II had offered 15,000 marks to have such seisin of Earl William's lands as his father had on the day on which King Richard disseised him. Geoffrey de Mandeville defended the proceedings in place of his father. The claim failed, but continued to smoulder until 1283-84, when the matter was settled by fine.

In 1193, at the King's command, he accompanied the Chancellor to Germany, where he appears as a witness to several charters given by the King, with whom he was also in April and May 1194 at Winchester, Bishop's Waltham and Portsmouth. He was with the King in the army of Normandy in 1194, and witnessed charters of the King at Rouen in 1196 or 1197. He was at Lambeth in 1201 and at Lisieux in October 1202. In July 1203 he obtained quittance of debts to the Jews of London, with a further quittance so long as he was in the King's service with arms and horses. In 1204 he had an allowance of one mark for certain expenses in connection with Dover Castle, and on 8 August a mandate issued that he should have 100 marks of silver for the work of the Castle. On 23 Jan 1205 the King ordered the Constable of Taunton to send a master miner with 40 men to Dover to Geoffrey de Say. In 1191 he paid part of the scutage charged against the heirs of Walkelin Maminot, and in 1194 he was brought in as debtor for the scutage of the heirs "quorum heres est." From 1194. onwards he was regularly amerced for scutage on the Maminot lands.

Geoffrey de Say married, 1^stly, Alice,* widow of Ralph de Cahaines, and daughter of Hugh Maminot. He married, 2^ndly, Alice, daughter of Aubrey de Vere, 1st Earl of Oxford, almost certainly by his 3rd wife Agnes, daughter of Henry de Essex. He was alive in 1212, but dead in 1214. Alice survived him and was living in 1214 and died possibly as late as 1217.

* His son Geoffrey m. after the end of 1175 and before 1180. Geoffrey de Say I may be the Geoffrey de Say who attested a charter of his uncle Gilbert de Say in 1151.

~Cokayne's Complete Peerage, 2nd Edition, (Say), Vol. XI, pp. 465-468

* From Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage: Volume 11: Say :

The correct identity of Geoffrey's wife is as given by Complete Peerage, vol. 5, chart before p. 117: Alice (widow of Hugh de Periers, who d. s.p. about Dec. 1175), da. and coh. of John de Chesney. John de Chesney's mother appears to have been Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and in her issue heir of Hugh's grandson Walkelin (d. c. 1190), son of Walkelin. Geoffrey and Alice were married by 1180, and she survived at least until 1185. Unfortunately, the account of Say in volume 11 assumes that it was Geoffrey's son of the same name who married Alice de Chesney, and bases its chronology on the date of this marriage. Therefore, much of the chronology for Geoffrey and his son should probably be revised later.

Evidence from pipe rolls and charters, showing that Alice "de Caineto", widow of Hugh de Periers, remarried to a Geoffrey de Say by 1180, was printed by Eyton in the 19th century [Antiquities of Shropshire, vol. 3, pp. 331-333]. It is clear that the Geoffrey in question was Geoffrey I (d. by 1214) from the following:

1- On 1 January "1198", Geoffrey de Say and his son Geoffrey made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice "de Kaisneio", the mother of the younger Geoffrey [Cal. Docs France, vol. 1, no 280]. Clearly these two Geoffreys are the same father and son who appear in two charters dated 1196-1198 concerning the manor of Rickling (Essex), the father describing himself as Geoffrey the son of William de Say [Cat. Anct Deeds, vol. 2, C2287; vol. 3, C3188].

2. A sequence of Bermondsey charters shows an original grant by Walkelin Maminot, successively confirmed by Geoffrey de Say, later by his son Geoffrey de Say - describing himself as the son of Geoffrey de Say and of Alice "de Chemunei" - and eventually by William de Say - mentioning his wife Sibyl and referring to the gifts of his father Geoffrey and his grandfather Geoffrey [J. Thorpe, Registrum Roffense, p. 169 (1769), citing British Library Cotton MS Claudius A VIII, no 14].

Round established a century ago that Alice was a daughter and coheir of John de Chesney [Genealogist, new series, vol. 18, p. 9 (1902), citing Dugdale's comments based on the cartulary of Coxford (Baronage, vol. 1, pp. 511, 614)]. John de Chesney was the son of Ralph de Chesney, and the grandson of another Ralph. The cartulary of Merton Priory records that Hugh Maminot gave the manor of Petham (Kent) to Ralph de Chesney in marriage with his daughter Alice [L. F. Salzman, Sussex Arch. Coll., vol. 65, pp. 21, 22 (1924), citing British Library Cotton MS Cleopatra C VI, no 69]. Chronologically, this would be John's father rather than his grandfather. (As Salzman points out, according to a Lewes manuscript, Ralph was predeceased by a wife named Emma - Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 5, p. 14 (1817-30 edn) - so it is possible that the Merton cartulary is wrong in calling Hugh Maminot's daughter Alice - Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p. 369) apparently takes this view.)

Evidently Alice de Chesney survived at least until 1185, as she and Geoffrey made a gift to Brockley (later Bayham Abbey) with the assent of Gilbert, bishop of Rochester, who did not succeed until that year [J. Thorpe, op. cit., p. 378, citing British Library Cotton MS Otho A II, ff. 36, 37].

Geoffrey married Alice de Chesney, daughter of John de Chesney and Sybil, in 1175-1180. (Alice de Chesney was born about 1165 in Newtimber, cuckfield, Sussex, England and died before 1225.)